"How does this happen? Why is this so difficult?"
That's what Husband asked himself last Monday night as he heard the latest about what has really been going on after he drops Fifi and Dumpling at their respective, age-appropriate classes with a very strict, organized, long-standing, highly-trained, trusted, doctrinally-sound organization to aid in the Bible teaching of his children.
I typed up these quotes--only some of what has been said that I find bothersome--but then decided not to publish the post...to let love cover it...to allow grace to reign in my heart and mind, and on my blog.
But then something changed last night.
"...God wants us to live righteously; He doesn't want us being involved in things like alcohol and sex..." male teacher to Fifi's co-ed class of 7th and 8th graders. (She was very embarrassed to be facing the latter reference in front of others--especially men and boys.)
"...when you receive salvation in Jesus Christ, you become part of the Trinity..." male substitute teacher addressing Fifi's class during the study of Matthew.
"...can you imagine how Joseph felt? Engaged to Mary and then he finds her pregnant?!" male teacher to Fifi's co-ed class of 7th and 8th graders.
What changed was that I had a chance to talk to one of the organization's directors, and to my shock and dismay, she stood by these kinds of quotes! Actually, I only got around to asking about the first one--after that, I didn't bother to pose the rest. What could be the purpose in a debate? After all, she wasn't apologizing--she and the organization are of the opinion that since these are the things that kids are talking about, these are the things that need to be talked about with kids.
Not my kids. Not with you. Not without me. Thank you.
I thanked her very much for letting me ask the question, and politely withdrew the girls from consideration in the women's class since it was clear that this kind of conduct wasn't just a problem with the men's classes.
She countered that she didn't see it as a problem at all.
Well--I meant anomaly, and was tempted to let it slide for the sake of unity, but just. could. not. Instead, I hemmed and hawed for a 1/2 a second and then said, "Well, yes, actually....it is a problem to us. We were under the impression all these years that ____ was all about Bible study--not Culture study."
She interjected that kids will eventually run into these terms and that you can't shelter them forever and that someday they're going to talk to their peers about it and that they can't be so protected...oh!...and that Jesus dealt with these subjects with his apostles and disciples.
Now, let me pause right there for a moment.
I am not a wise old woman. I have not walked with the Lord for even half my life. I have not gotten around to reading every singe verse in the Bible, and do not even have a very good grasp of the order of the Old Testament kings and prophets. But one thing I think I have learned, and it is this: when I have a conviction, or make a decision, or choose for or against a thing--if it is really of the Lord, then I am comfortable. Comfortable enough to not need to take a vote on it. Comfortable enough to not need another's validation. And especially comfortable enough to not need to defend it.
The director seemed to really need me to agree with her.
Could it be that she has a 7th grader of her own? And if so, maybe on some level she knows that her 12 year old is growing up too fast? Maybe deep down she's a little unsure as to whether it really has to be that way. Is she questioning the wisdom in just "going with the flow?"
Perhaps--just perhaps--for a quick second a little part of her is rethinking the idea of subjecting her child to the institutionalized madness of preteen peer pressure, cut-throat politics, and experimentation in which young people without fully developed frontal lobes laugh at the risks and learn to just. be. o.k. with incredibly vulgar expressions of debauchery...and to expect lasciviousness as the norm...and to come to feed it with varying degrees of fornication.
Among other offenses that may kill them now or later.
But back to the very sad realization that now...even a community Bible study is too worldly for Fifi. Not because she won't know of these things, but because--Lord willing--everything she needs to know about the World system and the World's priorities will come to her through the filter of God's Word and by His appointed authorities in her life--her Daddy and me. In the shelter of our home. In the privacy of our relationship. Unless the Lord overrules with circumstances beyond our control.
If she would have it any other way, I would be so very concerned.
29 comments:
A member of the witness protection program responding here :)
You Go Girl!!!!
The response "they are will encounter it eventualy and we can protect them forever," always gets me.
They are my children (and my husbands.) God entrusted them to us. He has instructed us on their training and raising them. We are accountible to Him and Him alone.
I wouldn't want my sons or daughter having these discussions in mixed company or without us.
I abhor the argument that "we can't protect them from everything" - not because I think we can, but because it's so often used as an excuse after the fact for not protecting them from something that could have been avoided with just an ounce of prevention.
This was one dad's response to his daughter's confession that she had experimented with drugs. This same dad allowed this same daughter to date an older boy, and left them unsupervised over night in his own home.
Many worldly parents would agree that we ought to at least try to protect them even if our efforts fail.
Sadly, it's becoming increasingly difficult to tell the church from the world.
I'm glad you found out the truth about this study now, before any more damage was done.
How did you find out what was being said? Did your husband sit in on a class, or did Fifi tell you what she was being taught?
It's sad what our world is coming to....you just can't trust anyone but the Lord.
Bravo, GB. I'm proud of you for taking the road less traveled...even in the Christian church community. These things ought not to be so, but we fight worldy mindsets at every turn.
I have teenagers too, and we shelter them from a lot more than most Christian parents do. I have heard that 50% of Christian youth completely lose their faith upon entering secular college. This says something to me...that even in 'late' youth, there is an establishing that needs to take place before being thrust out in the world.
Keep up the good work! :-)
~Christal
I am glad you found out about these things--and that Fifi felt uncomfortable. That is good that she did.
I'm sorry they won't be able to continue in something that should be so good for your family to participate in.
And thank you for sharing this--your higher standard with Fifi encourages me to keep going the direction we are going with our children.
And yes, we speak a language many don't understand when we talk about protecting our children and about us being the appointed authorties in our daughters' lives.
AND? You should sit in on a "youth group class" some time. My husband finally had to start discussing hard topics because the teens kept bringing them up and that is just where they were. He kept steering them back to the Bible, but they were so immersed in the world...We felt like we should put a PG 13 rating on the youth suite.
BTW - I would be more concerned about the second quote. What kind of doctrine was he espousing?
With all due respect Mrs. Destroyer, it does not surprise me that you would look right past the other two quotes, which truly solidifies my concern here. I know that you "serve" the Lord by chaperoning co-ed camping trips for your church youth and I believe that may have muddied your discernment.
Dear Sister in Christ, I implore you to rethink and fervently pray with a yielded heart for God's best for those decisions.
But, yes...of *course* the 2nd quote was concerning, though we think we know what the teacher *meant.* Fifi saw the error in that statement right away, which is why she brought it to us.
Actually that was my second comment. Somehow my first, rather lengthy comment seems not to have made it to you. Obviously I did not push all the right buttons (I must be one who only sometimes doesn't know how to comment :)!)
Anyway, what I basically said the first time was that it was at least encouraging to find a teacher who was bold enough to be actually challenging young people to live holy, pure lives. Many young people of that age are interested only in socializing and entertainment and Bible study is boooring. So that this group was not about fun and games but was about serious study and calling the young people to obey what they were studying was refreshing. They had not given in to the mentality of "let's give them what they want just to get them in the door." Your girls are greatly blessed to have parents that understand what it means to be godly parents and are diligent, faithful, and seeking to honor God in the decisions that you make. Unfortunately, not all parents are as faithful and not all parents are saved. Sometimes children need to hear the call to obedience from someone else and they need to know that it isn't just mom and dad who believe this way. Sadly, these are issues today's teens face, whether they are homeschooled, go to Christian school or public school. They may not be tempted in these areas but they will know those who are or who are affected by such things. Do I(we) discuss these topics with our coed groups? No, not generally. But we do urge purity and holiness in thought, deed, action, attitude. We use examples like lying, stealing, temper, obedience, etc. If the issue came up, would I be afraid to address it? It would depend on the child and the circumstance.
Well done, Mom, well done...shelter, protect, and guard those children's hearts with all your might.
Sadly, our family has learned (the hard way) during the past several years that everything - EVERYTHING - including that which comes from any "very strict, organized, long-standing, highly-trained, trusted, doctrinally-sound organization" must be thoroughly checked against the Word. Acts 20:28-30.
Rabbit...
You know, we studied the Bible with this org for 8 years! I think the reason it wasn't a problem before, was that Fifi was never in the 7th/8th grade class before. It's a real loss to us; we thought it would be an excellent study right through high school.
Mrs. Destroyer...
Well, I did wonder at the "BTW," thinking there must have been a first part, but I didn't get it--neither on my Blogger dashboard nor my mailbox. Sorry! :)
You stated,
"Sometimes children need to hear the call to obedience from someone else and they need to know that it isn't just mom and dad who believe this way. Sadly, these are issues today's teens face, whether they are homeschooled, go to Christian school or public school."
I think this is error. My point exactly is that it *doesn't* have to be that way! It. just. doesn't. It's a lie Satan tells the 21st century parent, and so many believe him only because so many others have believed him.
As has been suggested in a few of the comments above, my children have had to learn and understand at their core, that there are times--many times--when they (or their moms and dads) *will* seem to be the only ones who believe this...whatever "this" might be in any one of a number of situations.
Some of the "this" moments are more critical than others, but we are prayerfully and decidedly raising them to stand alone before their God without any hint of mob mentality.
Even the Christian church mob mentality.
And lest you think I sound hard hearted and unavailable to the lost in our society, I invite you to peruse my tag labeled, "Loving the Lost." Specifically this post about a time that was a true blessing to us all...
http://restoringtheyears.blogspot.com/2006/05/little-women.html
Surely there is a way of ministering to the unsaved without sacrificing our holiness...Jesus did it. If we ask Him rather than just doing what has always been done or looks good to us, He will be faithful to teach us, I am sure.
GB--
I agree with you 100%!! I know that God entrusted His children into my husband and my hands. Therefor it is our responsibility as God fearing disciples of Jesus Christ to train them up in the way they should go...Not only that but God says in Deut. 6:6-7
And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
And thou shalt teach them diligently unto they children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
Correct me, with the Word, if I am wrong, but that says to ME, that it is MY responsibility to teach MY children and not to be handing them over to somebody elses instruction. WE will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ and tell Him why we did and said EVERYTHING that we did and said!!! So the Lord has shown me that I can NEVER know everything that is being taught to my young children, so how will I give an account of that? He gave those babies to ME(and my husband) not joe blow or any other 3rd party--ME... It is a very sobering thought! Thank God that His Grace is sufficient and His mercies endure forever!!!! Praise God!!
Anyway, one last thing, Peter says in 1Peter5:8--
Be sober, be vigilant; because our adversary the devil; as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour...
Satan isn't seeking the lost--he already has them. So who does he want? US! We must always keep our sword sharp! Because we are responsible as Christians to KNOW God's Word! Whether we know the Word or not it is ALWAYS true and you better believe that the devil knows God's Word(he has been around a while!)! Sorry, I will step off of the soapbox! I just love knowing that there are others who are willing to walk the road less traveled so to speak! God bless you!!!! And Praise Jesus for you!!!!
Sincerely in Christ,
Sarah T
It's good that you stood up not only for what you believe, but for what's right: purity and holiness. It's enough that we have to shelter our kids day to day. Now you have to do it at church as well?
I could tell you stories that would curl your hair about the trouble we got up to in youth group and bible camp and retreats when I was a teenager oh so many moons ago. I cringe now when my little sister, who is a young-to-mid teenager, talks about youth group and missions trips which my parents do not attend. Just the desire to conform at that age often overrides any good sense. They need to be protected from others and from their own foolishness - no matter how smart or good they are.
Hey everyone...just to be perfectly clear, this is *not* a class in my church. We do not have a youth group, and I can't see that we would ever have the girls involved in one in any format that we've seen.
This class was part of a very rigorous, no-moment-left-unstructured International Bible study that just happens to be based out of San Antonio.
Well, I learned more about sex and dating from youth leaders (actually, their wives, and these were seminary students'wives) THIRTY YEARS AGO than I learned anywhere else, including health class in public school. I'm sure they meant well. ;-) Unfortunately, the church (and Bible study "programs") can be host to some of the worst influences in our kids' lives. Not to be pessimistic or anything, but be sure you and your readers check out what's going on in California these days here:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58185
Truly amazing.
Eye opening. Thank you for posting this, to continue to encourage us as parents to be more and more vigilant. We need that encouragment, no matter how strong our convictions.
Some of the "this" moments are more critical than others, but we are prayerfully and decidedly raising them to stand alone before their God without any hint of mob mentality.
Amen!
Matthew 7:13-14 "Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it."
I am rather dismayed at these goings on at this particular Bible study. We must be so watchful--everywhere. That's what's sad. We are considering pulling one of our daughters from youth SS, just because of the discussions. The eldest daughter has shown herself to be so grounded that we may leave her in. But we have found a class of adults that have let them both join where they learn the Hebrew and the Greek and MUCH expository, like seminary teaching. No, "how do you feel about" stuff. If my husband didn't teach 5/6 grade; we'd be in it, too.
Glad to know we're not the only "overprotective" ones around.
PS We met briefly when you were visiting Granny's group.
Well, "Hi" walkmom! I have no idea who you are.
:(
because your profile doesn't have a blog...and surely "walkmom" isn't your real name. ;)
But thank you for sharing your thoughts and experiences on the issue.
I'll give you some hints; I sat to your left (not immediate). I was the one with 5 girls and one lone baby boy. He's growing up with 6 moms! And I'm the one without the blog! I barely have time to read 'em, much less write 'em. Come back to HOPE sometime; I love reading your blog. My first name's Vicki
O.k. walkmom! Were you late arriving? I think that was you.
Or were you in the rocker, military, and moving away?
I'm horrid with names, but I remember the stangest details sometimes. ;)
Thanks for the invitation back to the group; if Husband drops this study for himself too (and not *just* Fifi) I'll be free on Mondays to join you!
I've been trying to leave a comment all day, and blogger was being very mean to me. Now, I'm late.... but I will still say, well... I'm shocked. And saddened.
Thanks for sharing this here as I'm sure your doing so was helpful to many who might encounter the same thing. It certainly reminds us how vigilant we must be with the children God has given us, even with those who are meant to teach us.
I too am saddened for your loss of something that you thought was going to be a great thing. My oldest is only 5 and we have already encountered these kind of things. Choosing not to be involved in things is and will be hard for me, because I'm the kind of person that likes to do everything. Reading your blog makes it easier!
Thank you,
Alison from Dallas
I'm probably going to be stoned, maybe that should have been one of your polling options...
My husband and I are the youth leaders in our church, and we do discuss the issues (when they arise) that are really affecting our youth (sex, alcohol, drugs) in light of pursuing holiness and striving to bring honor and glory to God alone in all that we do, say and are.
You are seriously fooling yourselves if you think that all the kids that we have the opportunity to impact are being taught good, solid doctrine and sin-fleeing techniques at home. We have a VERY small church and of the handful of kids we have, two of them are 18yr old senior boys who have girlfriends and I know as fact that they have these girls in their homes at all hours of the night. That is asking for trouble! Obviously it does not concern their parents, so if not us, then who is going to instill in these young men the importance of holiness and God-glorifying actions, thoughts and relationships?
Nothing about your first and last quotes shocked me, the middle one, that is flat out wrong. Sounds to me like dominion theology and on that basis alone I would have pulled my child from the class.
Alrighty ladies... stone away! :)
Why do other people think that they can parent our children better than we can parent them? Why must people feel the need to tell us what we should prepare our children for? God has given each of us grace and wisdom for the children He has given us. I think if God wanted to share these things with yoru kids, that He would have let you know.
Hi Courtney...no one here is going to stone you! Not on my watch. I have an unwritten comment policy: no foul language or questionable slang, and no linking back to hate blogs. Other than that, you are allowed to disagree. But others will be welcome to politely tell you why you're wrong.
I'm kidding.
Well, not really. ;) lol.
Anywho...
I can see why you think your perspective is a good one. But I think ClassicMama and others point out something better; I'd so much rather see churches working with the parents that don't care than just boldly and presumptively usurping their authority.
If these negligent parents have been fully informed as to the content of your group discussions and choose to abdicate the raising of their children to a youth pastor anyway, then that is an action they will stand before His throne to explain. And yes, yours is only to answer the call.
BUT WAIT! In my case, we had only to think (based on 8 years of experience with the group) that what we were subjecting the children to was only and always SCRIPTURE study. In fact, we felt safe that the two-hour class was scheduled to the minute, leaving next to NO time for preteens to discuss or engage one another unsupervised.
Who could know the sin-speak would come from the leader?! That isn't what we signed up for.
(And...let me throw this wrench in works...I actually *know* homeschooling parents who have not yet told their 12 year olds the concept of human sexuality and reproduction! While I don't advocate ignorance at that late stage, it's not my business or the youth leader's to introduce the topic, is it?)
You sharpen those of us with younger kiddos, GB. Thank you. I find it easier to plan ahead as to how we will face some of these encouters as I read about the wise paths several of you other moms and dads are taking with their young adults.
I was a bigtime youth groupie, so to speak, and I'm ashamed not only of my rebellion in insisting upon my involvement against my parents' better judgement, but of the discussions and activities that went on there. And we were the "good kids"! We had most people fooled, and certainly had ourselves fooled, just because we weren't doing anything really "wrong" by the world's standards. But it's the attitudes and purity of the heart, along with the dangerous peer mentality (even, and sometimes especially, in Christian circles) that will keep us from ever having our kids in a youth group.
The parents we know that have carried this through 'til the end, rather than relinquishing their oversight at the most tender time in their young adult's lives, have had the joy of seeing the fruit of their protection: older children who are mature, wise, and able to filter anything and everything through their grounding in scripture.
BTW, I do hope that you become available on Monday nights to come back to HOPE meetings! :)
I know I'm very late to this discussion GB but I just found you through Amy's Humble Musings (I clicked on your name because it was intriguing! :-) ) and I'm so glad I did.
I've practically had to grip my seat as I've read some of the comments to avoid jumping up and shouting "YES! YES!"
Especially you comment: "I'd so much rather see churches working with the parents that don't care than just boldly and presumptively usurping their authority." It grieves me to no end that even those who say they agree with the Biblical premise of parents being ordained by God to teach their own children take the same socialist attitude as public education - parents can't be trusted to teach what they ought so the collective "we" must do it!
In our last church our pastor went positively ballistic on us when we didn't enthusiastically sign our 15 year old son up for a co-ed camping trip. We told him we'd consider it, IF my husband could get the week off and go along. Several ugly confrontations ensued.
He later told us we "had strange ideas about raising our children".
This was an Orthodox Presbyterian church, we were stunned.
I'd love to know, if any of you are still reading, how do you manage to protect your children's innocence in such a pervasive culture? Maybe it's just suburban Philadelphia but I'm ready to cloister the kids...
Post a Comment